Curse

moriz · Nov 14, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Sorry, but with all of the changes that have taken place to pve in the name of pvp balance over the years, I would probably say PvE'ers are the most adaptable players in the game. The PvE game has had to change so many times. I like to PvP as well, but quite fankly, there are so many PvP nerfs because (with the exception of the greats that have mostly left the game by now), most PvPers require Divine Intervention in the form of a skill nerf or two in order to counter something. PvEers will overcome, bitch and moan, but overcome eventually. PvP will require yet more Divine Intervention (or Dev Intervention rather) the next time a cookie cutter build hits PvX and people start downloading it. Admittedly PvEers don't adapt unless they have to but they have, over the years, had to adaptto more changes on their own due to dev's making the PvP metagame easier for those PvPers that can't seem to overcome the most common cookie cutters.

The top guilds/players in PvP more likely spend their time overcoming any builds that give them problems instead of whining for a nerf. Unfortunately I think there probably aren't as many in that category, causing fewer counters to trickle down into the PvP masses.

for the last time, GW pvp is a COMPETITIVE game. and like all competitive games, it requires a steady stream of skill balancing in order to make it work. GW high level pvp is NOT about countering recountering. that will lead to what's known as "build wars", or in other words: a glorified rockpaperscissors game. that is NOT a good thing.

unlike pvp, GW pve is not a competitive game. as such, it really doesn't matter whatever the form skills end up being. it's a fact that you can go through the game with an empty skill bar, and do nothing but direct your henchmen. skill balance makes no difference in pve to those with a brain.

ensoriki · Nov 14, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Who cares about EW getting hit badly?

Unless you're a farmer trapping, or a Spiritway scrub, you seriously don't care.

WoH was too powerful

Necros have enough energy as it is. You have Signet of Lost Souls ffs. That should be on 90% of necros bars. QQ moar

Who the hell cares about the fact that the pets no longer leave exploitable corpses. Except the shit N/R minion master builds, this doesn't affect pve.

GG Assassins. Always been a terrible class, GG on being nerfed into shit. Good riddance.

Honestly, people, there isn't much to complain about here.

FFS.

Assassins aren't dead, just because you spit your spite on them Doesn't mean there dead.

SP sin instagib is hopefully dead, but sin's existed before that build and we still do.

The only problem here is Horns of the ox.

Mark of instability can fill in its space.

MoI allows for stronger damage anyways due to the fact you could knock down with twisting fangs (Bleed+DW+knockdown)

And then finish with BoS/Death blossom.

By nerfing horns they pretty much FORCE, any assassin without Eye of the North

To take MoI and increase there damage even more, but loose a slot.
Or take Iron Palm.

>.> You don't see how stupid the horns nerf was but I do.

New build...actually old really...dug it up from my archives

[card]Aura of Displacement[/card]
[card]Mark of instability[/card]
[card]Golden Phoenix Strike[/card]
[card]Twisting Fangs[/card]
[card]Falling Spider[/card][card]Blades of steel[/card]
[card]Feigned[/card]
[card]Resurrection signet[/card]
[card]Dark Escape[/card]

Does more damage then the combo using horns.

No they did not kill sins, they just reverted us to take out OLD builds from a year ago.

except without Horns...thus to give Knock down...we must Increase our damage.

GG

Malice Black · Nov 14, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

I lol'd irl.

I still am

Quote of the day, follwed by Colbalts

I love skill update threads lol

Lady Raenef · Nov 14, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

now your being silly.

Too many lead attacks?
Yet so many of them are crap?

Expose.. your kinda right, it lasts to long, Izzy that was not a smart move, I will ask you kindly to re-evaluate that so that it lasts a bit longer. Gaile....pass the message =P.
Now...Horns of the ox.

WTF ...Ill give a reason for the red engine to sound!!! but I'm to sad right now... im going on anti-depressants...this crap is enough to turn you emo.

[a lot was cut, I'll recap.]

Wastrel's Collaspe, dumbest Assassin skill you have.

Horns of the Ox, I am crying with you. That skill didn't deserve the nerf, now it will do very minimum damage, almost making the short knockdown, not worth it. At least increase the KD time by a whole second, giving us even MORE time to pull off the Falling spider. Ever hate those times where you use Horns of the Ox while they were running, or you were using shock, etc, and then by the time you use it, they're back up already. Yeah.

We do have too many lead attacks, IMO, and not very good ones, same goes with off-hands. Assassins are supposed to get in, combo, and get out, however with the current skills, it's hard to pull off something that works effectively. I don't know about you, but I always have to play smart (which is probably a good thing) but for example, I'm in the RA.

I'm always watching for when the Monk is using his/her Guardian, and whoever it's been casted on (thank the makers for at least giving that a unique animation, which I wish more skills had.) then spike someone, as almost 9/10 of the times, if I start attacking someone, even without a spike build, BLOCK. BLOCK. BLOCK. BLOCK. BLOCK. There's so many blocking skills, hardly any effective unblockable skills. Bull.

Expose was nerfed twice, if you wish to lower it, lower it to 6 seconds at 12, 9 seconds at 16, 25 recharge, with a 5 energy cost. The 10 energy is too much cost for an assassin with horrible defense, and only 25 energy to use. I use radiant runes to try and make up for the damage of the cost of the attacks.

As for Shadow Prison sins nerfed, no, not completely. I'm going to just load up a new build. Same thing as Shadow Prison spikers today, Shadow Prison, Tiger Stance, Black Lotus Strike, only, I'm going to throw in an off-hand right there, then Twisting Fangs, Black Spider Strike, Blades of Steel, Ressurection Signet. Yeah, that's right.

PARAGONS. FIX THEM. Izzy, I am depending on you to make Paragons used more, but watch the skills you choose. Shouts, more effective, last longer than one or two attacks, change Aggressive Refrain to 10 energy, you get a speed attack bonus for say, 8...16 seconds, as a shout, it ends prematurely if you use another shout or chant. Leadership attribute.

I want my Paragon to be awesome, not a heaping pile of "No one plays Paragons, GTFO!" or "Paragons suck you noob!"

Kusandaa · Nov 14, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Metal X

Isn't using a build that doesn't use corpses called adapting, and to me it just sounds like your being too stubborn to change from a MM rofl, leave the MMing to Olias.

I completely agree.

Having a necro as a main char, I can say the same thing. MM isn't the only way to go. Sure in areas with exploitable corpses, it's pretty fun; damage-reducing in a way your foes will focus on something else than the party members, bodyblocking (see ToPK and SF b/P groups), and pressure on your foes. However, you can bet I don't rely on ranger pets when I'm MMing - if an area doesn't have exploitable corpses, I won't play MM and I'll go for something else. Hell, we have SV, FoC, SS, degen builds, we can nuke, we can heal, and more. So why sticking to MMing? There's much more to necro >_>. I'll live with the pet nerf 'cause aside ToPK/SF, I don't MM much anymore and when I do, there's a ton of exploitable corpses.

Adaptation > GW. Something PvPers would indeed need to learn.

Nuclfus · Nov 14, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

As far as I can tell, the pet corpse nerf (along with the new splinter weapon) is there to try and break the monopoly B/P farming has on tombs. I would think it's still doable (pets tanking during MM downtime), just the corpses aren't infinite so you can't be as sloppy. Which opens the door for other strategies to be tried out...

Sergeant of Marines · Nov 14, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

We will adapt and overcome!

People will come up with new builds that are "overpowered", then they will nerf some skills in that build.

Rinse, repeat....

CHunterX · Nov 14, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

If your beastmaster Ranger relied on your pet to die, you are bad.

Try thinking just a little bit outside the box. No one really relied on a pet dying (outside Tombs), but now, if that does happen, and it will (and admit, a Dire pet is going to get targeted more often then most real players), it can't even serve the purpose of partially helping an MM or Well. Again, its more hits against players who want to use a Pet. Its like they took one spell away from Rangers. For no reason.

Pirates Arrrg Matey · Nov 14, 2007, 02:17 AM // 02:17

nothing here really effects me, i'll just have to think of different builds to use. no SR gain from spirits makes sense to me. No pet corpses makes it seem they are implying that pets are undead I guess, in that case my necromancer should be undead too and be immune to conditions.

But seriously the other nerfs don't affect me for i don't base my ranger builds on barrage and pets alone. Arrrg I guess its off to making new builds, wait new builds I thought we always used the same builds over and over? Wow hmmm..

Sleeper Service · Nov 14, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary Raebbit

Didn't know pets and their corpses were such an integral part of some PvE build. Sorry for stepping on your toes trying to have fun in the easiest part of the game.
(...)

play HM. come back when you're done.

fyi no pets are not integral to any of my necro build. it just so happens i LIKE taking my pets out with me EXCUSE ME FOR ENJOYING THE GAME.

up to now they left a corpse, now they don't. why?

like someone said above me, pve will adapt. we always adapt. except in very specific situations people will be running all kinds of builds, numerous and diverse.

pvp on the other hand establishes a meta, becomes STALE and then izzy has to come and hold your hand while the class hollers and whines pointing at the "bad bad man" crying "make him go away he scary".

CyberNigma · Nov 14, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergeant of Marines

We will adapt and overcome!

People will come up with new builds that are "overpowered", then they will nerf some skills in that build.

Rinse, repeat....

Well said... :-)

lacasner · Nov 14, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

It's times like these that I wish armor was trade able, so I could just dump my sins armor to some other player for my cash back

Malice Black · Nov 14, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

play HM. come back when you're done.

fyi no pets are not integral to any of my necro build. it just so happens i LIKE taking my pets out with me EXCUSE ME FOR ENJOYING THE GAME.

up to now they left a corpse, now they don't. why?

like someone said above me, pve will adapt. we always adapt. except in very specific situations people will be running all kinds of builds, numerous and diverse.

pvp on the other hand establishes a meta, becomes STALE and then izzy has to come and hold your hand while the class hollers and whines pointing at the "bad bad man" crying "make him go away he scary".

Bring pet - kill pet - raise meat shield - rez pet - rinse and repeat??

Boringgggg

ensoriki · Nov 14, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Izzy.....Keep whatever sin nerfs you want

I beg.....Restore horns........I'll go down on my knees.

I'll leave Guru's pvp forums Forever!! if you restore horns within the hour.

Fates · Nov 14, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

for the last time, GW pvp is a COMPETITIVE game. and like all competitive games, it requires a steady stream of skill balancing in order to make it work. GW high level pvp is NOT about countering recountering. that will lead to what's known as "build wars", or in other words: a glorified rockpaperscissors game. that is NOT a good thing.

...

Interesting. Ensign, in that goofy edited skill balance article, told us that during the early days of GW high end pvp it was great never knowing what your opponent was going to bring to the table and likewise, what you might bring.

Now you're telling me that coming up with unique builds isn't good for pvp? Everyone bring they're cookie cutter 2 wamos, 2 eles, 2 monks, 1 ranger and whatever else and it's great fun?

Sekkira · Nov 14, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Interesting. Ensign, in that goofy edited skill balance article, told us that during the early days of GW high end pvp it was great never knowing what your opponent was going to bring to the table and likewise, what you might bring.

Now you're telling me that coming up with unique builds isn't good for pvp? Everyone bring they're cookie cutter 2 wamos, 2 eles, 2 monks, and whatever else and it's great fun?

You're not reading properly.

Sleeper Service · Nov 14, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

for the last time, GW pvp is a COMPETITIVE game. and like all competitive games, it requires a steady stream of skill balancing in order to make it work. GW high level pvp is NOT about countering recountering. that will lead to what's known as "build wars", or in other words: a glorified rockpaperscissors game. that is NOT a good thing.

unlike pvp, GW pve is not a competitive game. as such, it really doesn't matter whatever the form skills end up being. it's a fact that you can go through the game with an empty skill bar, and do nothing but direct your henchmen. skill balance makes no difference in pve to those with a brain.

name me ONE competitive game where they go in and change the rules every few months.

ummm...

ok one game then.

"lets have a chess tournament!"

"ok"

"wait what day is it?, Tuesday yeah...so..."

"yeah towers now move diagonally and the queen can only take a piece if you wear green socks"

or CSS?

"from now on until next month Glock and AWM damage will be reversed in the sake of promoting handgun usage and competitiveness"

Kraken The Mad · Nov 14, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

OK most of these updates i understand, except the monk ones cause i never play a monk. Mostly i play an assassin, and let me kill your fears that i am going to just whine about how badly assassins have just been nerfed, because it looks like that is all i will be killing. there are only 2 assasin nerfs that i disagree with, namely trampling ox, and horns of the ox. these are duel attack skill and they deserve to deal some damage. trampling it might be possible to recover from, but horns is now officially dead. it is a dual attack skill that dealls 20 dmg (counting both hits) and has a conditional knokdown. it should at least have each hit deal 20 dmg, and trampling should deal 25/hit. also since assassins no longer have a decent way of KDing an oppnent the falling skills are dead too.
My remedy. give horns 20 dmg/hit. reduce the recharge of mark of instability to 10. add a clause to critical strikes that says "For each point in critical strikes assassin criticals deal 1 more dmg." this would help cover the low dmg of daggers and all the recent dmg nerfs to assassins.

GrannyGoose · Nov 14, 2007, 02:29 AM // 02:29

thanks Nerf-Net for ruining one of the last fun things to do B/P Ranger

CyberNigma · Nov 14, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fates Monk

Interesting. Ensign, in that goofy edited skill balance article, told us that during the early days of GW high end pvp it was great never knowing what your opponent was going to bring to the table and likewise, what you might bring.

Now you're telling me that coming up with unique builds isn't good for pvp? Everyone bring they're cookie cutter 2 wamos, 2 eles, 2 monks, and whatever else and it's great fun?

You just promoted that guy to Ensign's level :-( Although, truthfully, Ensign probably disagrees with me just as much as these guys, probably more on principle, but I doubt back during the heyday he and his peers had as much trouble finding counters and ways to solve problems as these people do. It's almost like they want GW PvP to be like chess.

Good call, btw.